[The following discussion took place on Facebook a little before 1 o'clock today with a friend of mine who here I'm going to be giving the nom de plume of "Lola Montenegro." If you've heard us use this name before, or if you're a Facebook friend who knows who I'm referring to, I ask you please keep it under your hat. I'm posting this because a) it was a rare civil discourse on Facebook about something and b) Lola is one of the few women I've known to argue for the other side of this issue. "Likes" are noted, but by who will be kept anonymous. - The Management.]
Lola: Glasses on a chick definitely don't seal the deal for me. The Saga: "Fanboy Rampage: Jennifer de Guzman Vs Dirk Manning" [Any readers should probably check out this article on Bleeding Cool before continuing - The Management.]
Randall: Dude was way out of line though. I hate seeing this goalkeeping stuff in geek culture.
Lola: On the other hand, chick needs to calm the fuck down. She went way off the handle on that. [comment was "Liked" once by X]
don't think so. This stuff is happening everywhere. The whole culture
is ripe with sexism, and telling women what's appropriate and what's
not. I mean, when you're a part of a culture that you constantly have to
justify your presence in, doesn't it make sense to have a short fuse
Maybe if more people who wanted to decide who is geek enough and who isn't got read the riot act about this, it'd stop.
model who's never read a comic in her life putting on glasses to be
"geek sexy" is hardly quantifiable. I think that was his target, in
which case I'm in agreement. [comment was "Liked" once by X]
Randall: I just don't think he has any right to be targeting anyone. Especially when we should be trying to be a welcoming culture.
Did you see Tony Harris's rant?
Randall [cont]: As a fan, I'm so disappointed.
model will take those glasses off when her "geek sexy pic" is done and
not give another two shits about the culture. There's nothing to
welcome. And yeah, I did see that. I'm still a Harris fan. Rich had a
good followup for that, putting it into somewhat of a more cohesive
perspective.[comment was "Liked" once by X]
but the same thing is true about say, the guy who played Hawkeye in the
Avengers movie, or performers in the XXX nerd parodies, many who have
documented not giving a shit about this stuff. When they were done with
those roles, and took those costumes off, we still welcome them into the culture. It's a double standard.
I saw Bleeding Cool's response [Article here: “Hey! Quasi-Pretty-NOT-Hot-Girl, You Are More Pathetic Than The REAL Nerds” – Tony Harris on Bleeding Cool by Rich Johnston, link not included in this particular exchange - The Management]. Again, I think there's perspective, and
I still like Harris's art, but what a douche-y thing to say. How does
he know that said girl in a Black Cat costume who wouldn't give the time
of day to a nerd at one con won't get her hands on a Runaways trade and
come back to the next 100% "one of us."
we don't even have to be welcoming them. But calling people phonies and
poseurs and telling them to get the fuck out is douche-y. It's douche-y
in any culture.
think it's only douchey if applied to someone who has an interest in
the culture or is just now getting into it. If applied to someone who
has absolutely no interest and puts on glasses just for "geek" fashion,
then fuck them, chick or dude.
how do we even know if they're getting into a culture, is the thing?
You have no interest in something until you suddenly do.
everyone worries about their culture or style being appropriated by
folks who don't give a shit, but getting extra-defensive about it never
stops. Just ask the punks and goths and beats who saw their styles end
up on runways, and on hipsters.
Lola: I agree that getting outrageously defensive is ridiculous.
think there are reasons to get angry about things in these situations,
especially when you're part of group getting discriminated against. I
think turning into Holden Caulfield and trying to play bouncer against
"phonies" is silly, and makes me wonder what's really important to the
people doing it.
have to admit, I'd like to ask her what she would call a woman model
who shows her tits on the Internet and panders to "nerds" and then use
whatever term she comes up with to replace "whore" and then see if she
can realistically pull off being that enraged. Just sayin'...
[To put a nice end cap on this, and give some people some supplemental material of some import, along with checking out the two Bleeding Cool articles above, I'd also recommend Guzman's recap of events on her site "Of Whores and Harridans" and also the New Statesman article "Nerds: Stop hating women, please" by Alex Hern. And just for a little injection of good vibes, my friend Hannah linked me to this essay by John Scalzi "Who Gets To Be a Geek? Anyone Who Wants to Be" and my oft-linked buddy John Wiswell added, via Twitter, "If you like something nerd culture has adopted, enjoy it. Decent people will accept that. Then you'll be in Decent Culture."
I want to thank Lola for letting me put this up here - I love her to death, even though we disagree, and that we could have such a civil conversation on the internet [!] even as close friends is truly amazing. Also, to Elizabeth DeLoria, Jill Pantozzi, and The Mary Sue for bringing these things to my attention, and Rich Johnston, for covering it all on BC. If anyone actually reads this post, feel free to comment, keep it going. Just stay civil.
Finally, to editorialize a bit. I don't just want to call attention to this because I'm a feminist, or because of my own attachment to geek culture - some could even call that connection tenuous after some things I've written here - even though both those things play into it. I can't help but get up in arms when I hear about this sort of thing, hear people trying to divvy up who is and isn't allowed to be a part of fandom, and is or isn't allowed to be fans of comics.
I mean, if you want someone to take aim at, why not have at me too? It took me 4+ years to self-publish my last 24 page comic. Feel free to tell me how I've no right to be here either. - The Management.]
[Additional. To go with Jennifer de Guzman's comment - her Twitter handle is @Jennifer_deG. - The Management.]
"Glasses on Chicks" - A Facebook Conversation with Lola Montenegro about Geek Culture, Cosplay, Jennifer de Guzman, Dirk Manning, and Tony Harris.
Posted by Randall Nichols Tuesday, November 13, 2012 5:09 PM